Chain of Learning: Leadership Strategies for Continuous Improvement and Transformational Change

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

Has lean really failed?

That question sparked one of the most listened-to conversations in the history of this podcast — my two-part series with Jim Womack in episodes 37 and 38.

When I sat down with John Shook — one of the most influential thought leaders and practitioners in the global lean and continuous improvement community — we explored a different angle.
John's perspective isn't a rebuttal. It's a reframe. A counterpoint to the question itself.
John asks: what problem are we really trying to solve?
His answer unfolds across three episodes — the first ever three-part series on Chain of Learning. And I think it will change how you think about your own impact as a change leader.

You’ll Learn:
Why the question "how many lean enterprises have we created?" may be leading us in the wrong direction — and what we should ask instead
The difference between "command and control" and what John calls "command and abandon" — and which one you're more likely doing
Why the key question in problem-solving is not "is this accurate?" but "is this useful?"
How to recognize your span of influence and build systems at the right level that help people think, learn, and take ownership
Why purpose → work → capability is the right sequence — and why most leaders start in the wrong place
ABOUT MY GUEST:
John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network.

John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application.
Will you help me?
I have a quick favor to ask. I’m conducting research for my next book and would love to get your insights on people-centered, learning organizations and the leadership that creates them. The survey takes just 5 to 10 minutes and your responses will directly shape the book and a future Chain of Learning podcast episode.
-> Take the Survey here, open through May 22.
IMPORTANT LINKS:
Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/74
Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ 
Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson 
Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter
Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com
Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip 
Grab a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead 
TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:
03:00 Why John Shook believes we may be asking the wrong question about lean
05:25 Why change leadership always starts with changing yourself
06:40 The tension between influencing others and trying to control them
08:15 What a people-centered learning culture actually looks like in practice
09:05 Why John avoids lean jargon and starts with the problem instead
10:00 The Toyota question that shaped John’s thinking: “What problem are you trying to solve?”
11:15 Why learning only matters when it’s grounded in the work
12:30 Toyota’s “attitude toward learning” and why it changes everything
15:05 Why leaders must create the environment for learning and problem-solving
16:00 How organizations drift into “big company disease”
17:05 Why purpose → work → capability is the sequence most leaders miss
18:15 The risk of starting culture change with leadership behaviors alone
19:20 Why focusing on the work reveals what’s really blocking change
21:00 Why John sees more “command and abandon” than command and control
23:20 Focusing on your span of influence instead of waiting for senior leaders
27:15 How every person at work already has “problem consciousness”
29:00 The surprising truth about who is most frustrated in organizations
32:15 Building systems at your level that create ownership and capability
33:20 Why modeling the behavior matters more than pushing harder
36:15 Why sustainable change starts with how you show up each day

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

The way you’re leading transformation might be getting in the way of the culture you’re trying to build.

As change leaders and practitioners, we care about results. But in that focus, it’s easy to stay on the outer work—processes, metrics, systems—and underestimate the inner work – our mindset, behaviors, and relationships – that actually moves people.
Our passion can unintentionally pull us away from creating the conditions for learning, alignment, and growth, and taking ownership back by stepping in to do, to solve, and to own the work.
To explore this, I’m joined by Richard Koch, who has spent 25+ years leading change inside large, complex global organizations—from frontline improvement to system-level transformation. We’re connected by a shared belief: sustainable transformation doesn’t come from pushing harder. It comes from creating the conditions for people to be successful.
In this conversation, Richard shares what he’s learned from being inside that tension including why the way many organizations deploy improvement teams can unintentionally prevent the problem-solving ownership they’re trying to build.
You’ll Learn:
Why daily work and small steps are where long-term change is actually built
How separating leadership development and continuous improvement creates confusion—and weakens ownership
Where improvement teams unintentionally take over the work and limit capability growth
What it looks like to support leaders in owning change without stepping in to solve it
Why the leader must be at the center of transformation—and what changes when that responsibility is held
ABOUT MY GUEST:
Richard H. Koch is Managing Director of Serofia and works with leaders who want to create meaningful progress for people, performance, and the future they are helping to shape. Drawing on more than 25 years of international experience across strategy, leadership, operational excellence, innovation, and transformation, he brings together coaching, training, and consulting in a way that is both human and practical. His approach is grounded in systems thinking, deep listening, and helping leaders turn strategic ambition into real progress through small steps and real work.
Will you help me?
I have a quick favor to ask. I’m conducting research for my next book and would love to get your insights on people-centered, learning organizations and the leadership that creates them. The survey takes just 5 to 10 minutes and your responses will directly shape the book and a future Chain of Learning podcast episode.
-> Take the Survey here, open through May 22.

IMPORTANT LINKS:
Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/73
Connect with Richard Koch: linkedin.com/in/richardkoch88
Learn more about Serofia: serofia.com
Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson 
Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter
Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com
TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:
03:44 Importance of seeing potential in every person
06:10 How seemingly insignificant actions ripple through teams
08:37 Why separating leadership and improvement work breaks progress
09:14 The Inner System vs. Outer System framework and how it drives change
12:19 The negative effect with silos that keeps you away from  focusing on the work and the leader
15:14 Why forcing change undermines ownership
17:32 The mindset shift for change leaders and internal consultants
19:07 Why daily work is the path to long-term transformation
21:22 When improvement work splits into process and leadership, change stops sticking
23:19 Why direct observation and connection matter
25:23 Challenge of relying on experts to help solve problems
28:27 How to build sustainability instead of dependency
29:05 Navigating trust, timing, and influence with senior leaders
32:25 Leading with empathy and understanding the pressure leaders are under
33:52 Value of having the right outside partner to achieve goals
35:50 Seeing a leader move from sponsor to truly owning and enabling change
39:36 Importance of staying curious and creating space for ideas and growth
41:00 Taking small steps to make big changes
43:00 The essence of small steps, belief in people, and leading with heart to create the conditions for change

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

The messy middle is part of the learning process.

It’s the point where what worked before no longer fully fits—but what comes next is not yet clear.
Where your thinking is still forming, your ideas are evolving, and the answer has not fully emerged.
And while it can feel uncertain, this is often where the deepest continuous learning happens.

In this behind-the-scenes bonus episode on Chain of Learning, I share a live conversation with, Betsy Jordyn, my business coach and strategic thinking partner, recorded on the final day of a working retreat earlier this month. 
We pull back the curtains and invite you into our unscripted reflections from working through the messy middle of shaping my next book—and the leadership (and life) lessons that continue to emerge through the process.
Tune in to hear the real-time learning, reflection, and refinement happening as I shape the ideas behind my next book.

You’ll learn:
Why the messy middle is often a necessary part of continuous learning, growth, and effective change leadership
How to recognize when forcing clarity too early limits stronger thinking from emerging
What it looks like to let ideas evolve instead of defending what came before
How collaboration and outside perspective sharpen your judgment and deepen your thinking
Why modeling your own learning process creates stronger conditions for learning in others
How to stay engaged in uncertainty without rushing to jumping to answers too quickly
ABOUT MY GUEST:
Betsy Jordyn is the founder and CEO of Betsy Jordyn International, a strategic branding firm that helps transformational consultants and coaches refine their messaging, positioning, and offers to accelerate their success and amplify their impact. She is also the host of the Consulting Matters podcast and a sought-after speaker and trainer on brand strategy, executive influence, and the business of transformation.

Will you help me?
I have a quick favor to ask. I’m conducting research for my next book and would love to get your insights on people-centered, learning organizations and the leadership that creates them. The survey takes just 5 to 10 minutes and your responses will directly shape the book and a future Chain of Learning podcast episode.
-> Take the Survey here, open through May 22.
IMPORTANT LINKS:
Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/72
Connect with Betsy Jordyn: linkedin.com/in/betsy-jordyn
Listen to Betsy’s Podcast, Consulting Matters: betsyjordyn.com/podcasts/consulting-matters 
Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com
Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson 
Download my FREE KATALYST™ Change Leader Self-Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/katalyst
Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter 
Take the People-Centered Leadership Survey
TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:
01:16 The hidden reality of creativity and why books are written multiple times
02:39 What the messy middle feels like and why this stage matters more than we think
05:04 Re-centering leadership on what’s within your control in a world of constant change
06:00 Why influence isn’t about forcing change, but creating conditions for growth
08:12 Reframing resistance and what people actually need to move forward
10:06 How to keep evolving instead of staying stuck in old ways of thinking
12:26 The process of writing a book and getting clarity on the what the book is about
16:04 Why growth often requires releasing what once worked
17:09 Benefits of collaborating in person vs. using AI as a thinking partner
18:07 Why learning can’t be forced, but we need to allow space for insight
22:07 The concept of omotenashi and looking at a lens of caring from a human angle
24:14 The meaning of Intention = Heart + Direction to create the conditions for learning
29:15 What changes when you respect others’ agency instead of driving direction
32:19 How to have empathy and not push your agenda when leaders are not “bought in”
33:01 Why your expertise can become a barrier to connection and clarity
35:46 How different perspectives reveal whether your message actually lands
38:08 Moving beyond the lingo to prevent barriers
43:27 Why growth requires releasing identities, ideas, and ways of working

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

Caring becomes carrying.

It happens so naturally we rarely notice it. Someone brings us a problem. We care. We want to help. And somewhere in that desire to help, without meaning to, we take on the weight of solving it ourselves.
That shift is subtle. And costly.
Because the moment you take ownership of the thinking, you take away the very capability you're trying to build.

In this episode, I explore a critical shift in change leadership: how to hold the thinking process so others can solve their own problems — without taking on their work as your own.
Your value as a leader isn't in having the answer. It's in creating the conditions where others can think, test, and learn. When you want to create empowered problem-solving in your organization, stepping back is stepping up.
You'll Learn:
How to notice when you've shifted from supporting someone's thinking to carrying their problem
Why redirecting your focus from the problem to the person working through it changes everything about how you coach
How to use a simple problem solving structure (Target, Actual, Gap) to anchor your questions and keep ownership where it belongs
How to stay present to how someone is thinking instead of jumping ahead to solutions
How to choose intentionally when to step in with direction — and when to step back to build capability
IMPORTANT LINKS:
Full episode show notes with links to other podcast episodes and resources: ChainOfLearning.com/71 
Check out my website for resources and ways to work with me KBJAnderson.com
Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson
Download my free KATALYST™ Change Leader Self-Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/katalyst 
TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:

00:40 The subtle shift from caring to carrying problem solving
03:35 Realization of owning the process of solving the problem
04:39 What gets in the way of intentions to be helpful
05:27 Why problem solving and problem solving coaching are two different skills
05:50 How to stay focused on the thinking process and keep from sliding back into the problem itself
06:42 How to anchor questions around a structured problem solving flow
08:11 The mantra, “Target, Actual gap, Please explain,” to identify the real problem before jumping to solutions
09:13 Benefit of assigning a problem for a team member to solve
10:56 The identity shift from having all the answers to holding the process
12:28 One way to notice if you have a telling habit
14:41 Why you should avoid defaulting to giving the answer and ask questions to understand the problem first
16:59 The meaning of intention = heart + direction to coach with the right motives
17:21 Three steps to coach with intention:
17:25 [ONE] Take an intention pause
17:45 [TWO] Choose the behaviors that align with that impact
18:08 [THREE] Reflect and learn your way forward
19:15 Positive result from leading by asking questions that helped team gain confidence
21:41 Three reflection questions before you go into your next coaching conversation

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

What happens when leaders make decisions further and further away from the work itself?
In a world of AI, automated dashboards, and remote work, it’s easy to manage representations of work instead of understanding what’s actually happening for the people who do it.
Yet, when leaders rely on data rather than facts, they often end up solving the wrong problems, even with the best intentions.
In this episode of Chain of Learning, I'm joined by Nigel Thurlow, consultant, systems thinker, and Toyota's first-ever Chief of Agile, to explore how better decisions come from understanding how the system actually operates. And that understanding is built by engaging with the people doing the work.
When you stay connected, you don't just get better information. You see how work actually flows, where problems emerge, and what's getting in the way. You build trust, surface issues earlier, and make it easier for people to think and solve problems together.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Why there's a critical difference between delegation and empowerment — and why one leaves people unable to act
How to distinguish between data and facts, and why going to see conditions firsthand changes the decisions you make
What "going to gemba" looks like in a digital or remote environment when there's no factory floor to walk
Why making work visible creates the conditions for people to surface problems,  before they compound
Why AI amplifies what's already there — and why fixing the underlying system comes first
ABOUT MY GUEST: Nigel Thurlow is CEO of The Flow Consortium and the creator of Scrum the Toyota Way. He spent over 20 years at Toyota, including serving as the first Chief of Agile at Toyota Connected. He is co-author of The Flow System and The Flow System Playbook, and his work focuses on improving decision-making in complex environments.

IMPORTANT LINKS:
Full episode show notes with links to other podcast episodes and resources: ChainOfLearning.com/70 
Check out my website for resources and ways to work with me KBJAnderson.com
Connect with Nigel Thurlow: linkedin.com/in/nigelthurlow
Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson
Download my free KATALYST™ Change Leader Self-Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/katalyst  
TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:
03:19 Effects of being detached from the work when working remotely
04:17 Difference between delegation and empowerment when assigning work to others
05:35 Fear of those who are delegated to of failing or making the wrong decision
07:15 What it means to empower someone and transfer the ownership of that decision to someone else
09:21 How to go to gemba and go where the work is done
10:07 The benefits of "presenteeism" and being present where the work is performed
11:46 Benefits of collaborating in person vs. a digital environment to make better decision
13:02 Nigel’s experience in working in a frozen food manufacturer and going out to the line to understand the pain workers experienced
15:42 Why you need to understand how work gets done to improve throughput and quality of work
16:39 Benefits of hiring an external or internal consultant to understand the problems that need solving
19:31 The effects of companies investing in tools and AI and realizing it doesn’t help with problem solving
21:30 How to avoid the leadership decision problem and get all the facts to avoid consequences
24:39 Technique known as “sense making” to understand the temperament and behaviors in the environment to reveal dark constraints
26:09 The difference between US and Toyota’s corporate culture in incentivizing leaders to be part of a system
29:10 How to help workers make changes that need to be made visible to senior leaders
35:04 Enabling others to communicate with leaders to improve decision making
37:14 Why badly designed systems and not the workforce are the cause of problems
38:25 Why you can’t implement AI with a broken system
40:31 The possible future of AI and how it can affect our decision making
43:37 Importance of embracing the human connection to better communicate and make better decisions
47:24 Reflect on where your decisions may be happening too far from the work

Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/