For the Life of the World / Yale Center for Faith & Culture

What does it take to put a fractured world back together? Philosopher and psychotherapist Mark Vernon joins Evan Rosa to explore William Blake as the great counter-Enlightenment guide for our anxious, divided age.

"The world comes to be seen as it truly is, which is infinite, and that can embrace distinction difference as much as similarity and sharing."

In this episode with Evan Rosa, Vernon explains how to read William Blake, and reflects on Blake as the most important post-Reformation Christian mystic—a poet, painter, and philosopher offering not just a diagnosis of modern division but the beginnings of an antidote. Together they discuss Newton's long shadow and the withdrawal of inner life; the fragmentation of humanity from itself, nature, and the divine; the marriage of heaven and hell; cleansing the doors of perception; imagination as abundance rather than scarcity; desire rightly ordered; and Blake's Christ, who acts from impulse rather than rule.

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Episode Highlights

"I think he's the most important post-Reformation Christian mystic."

"We need these oppositions in order to create the dynamism of life and hence the Marriage of Heaven and Hell."

"The task is to align, align with the goods in the melee, and see how that which is seemingly different for you, might have something to offer you."

"The world comes to be seen as it truly is, which is infinite, and that can embrace distinction difference as much as similarity and sharing."

"The fullness of the love, the fullness of the goods, paradoxically, it can seem, is only revealed when it reaches out to that, which seems to be the opposite of it."

———

About Mark Vernon

Mark Vernon is a writer, broadcaster, and psychotherapist with a private practice in London, and a former Anglican priest. His studies began with a physics degree at Durham University, followed by two degrees in theology and a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy from the University of Warwick; he has also worked at the Maudsley Hospital. He contributes to the BBC, the Guardian, and Church Times, and podcasts frequently. His books range across friendship, wellbeing, ancient philosophy, Dante's Divine Comedy, and the Inkling Owen Barfield. His most recent book, Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination (Hurst, 2024), has drawn praise from Rowan Williams and others as among the finest recent studies of Blake. Learn more and follow at markvernon.com, his Substack A Golden String (markvernon942268.substack.com), and @platospodcasts on X.

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Helpful Links and Resources

Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination, by Mark Vernon: https://www.markvernon.com/books/awake-william-blake-and-the-power-of-the-imagination

A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness, by Mark Vernon: https://www.markvernon.com/books/a-secret-history-of-christianity-book

Dante's Divine Comedy: A Guide for the Spiritual Journey, by Mark Vernon: https://www.markvernon.com/books/dantes-divine-comedy-book

The Marriage of Heaven and Hell, by William Blake (The William Blake Archive): https://www.blakearchive.org/work/mhh

Mark Vernon's website: https://www.markvernon.com

A Golden String (Substack): https://markvernon942268.substack.com

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Show Notes

Underappreciated, often typecast visionary

1827—approaching the 200th anniversary of Blake's death approaching

Tumultuous age: Seven Years' War, American and French Revolutions, Napoleonic Wars

London quadruples in size; Hindu, Islamic, and global ideas arrive

"I think he's the most important post reformation Christian, mystic"

Polymath—poet, painter, philosopher, didact

Counter-Enlightenment response to rationalism

Isaac Newton's influence "can't be overstated"

One law binds falling apple and orbiting moon

Locke, Bentham, utilitarianism, calculation as the moral measure

"withdrawing the inner life of human beings"—the objective as gold standard

Fragmentation: dividing humanity from itself, nature, the gods

Reading Blake now offers "the beginnings of an antidote too"

Feeling and imagination complement reason; imagination as the shape of energy

Marvel superheroes analogy—one superpower detached goes wrong

Bacon's dream: tools to restore Eden, and its tragedy

Magnet's two poles—the marriage of heaven and hell

Angels grow complacent, devils too dastardly; tension creates beauty and exuberance

Cleansing the doors of perception; a world in a grain of sand

"align, align with the goods in the melee"

Division never purifies society—"it just leads to a mess"

"embrace distinction difference as much as similarity and sharing"

Heaven and hell as states of mind; participative epistemology

Education that teaches students to divide themselves from learning

Imagination as abundance, not scarcity

Desire rightly ordered—"less than all cannot satisfy man"

Blake's Christ acts from impulse, not rule

Fountains of living water; the closing lines of Jerusalem

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#WilliamBlake #MarkVernon #ForTheLifeoftheWorld #Imagination #MarriageOfHeavenAndHell #CounterEnlightenment #ChristianMysticism #Theology #Poetry #DoorsOfPerception

What sustains faith when prayer feels flat and God seems distant—and there's no clear tragedy to explain it? Anglican priest and former New York Times columnist Tish Harrison Warren joins Macie Bridge to talk about weariness, burnout, and the quiet middle stretches of a long spiritual life. Drawing on her new book What Grows in Weary Lands, she turns to the Desert Fathers and Mothers for a resilience that resists both flaming out and numbing out.

"It felt like the call had dropped, like the line had gone dead."

In this episode with Macie Bridge, Warren reflects on her own season of spiritual aridity and the ancient counsel to stay in your cell rather than escape.

Together they discuss the difference between burnout and weariness, acedia and the noonday demon, perseverance, silence as countercultural practice, and the world as a womb. They explore why escape rarely heals and what it means to trust the slow work of God.

Episode Highlights

"It felt like the call had dropped, like the line had gone dead." "I do not think vitamin D will solve what I'm talking about." "We're not having to hold our life together in the midst of weariness with will power and duct tape." "We kind of bring Times Square with us wherever we go now." "God doesn't need me to be impressive or achieving."

About Tish Harrison Warren

Tish Harrison Warren is a writer and an Anglican priest. She is the author of Liturgy of the Ordinary, named Christianity Today's 2018 Book of the Year, and Prayer in the Night, which won both Christianity Today's 2022 Book of the Year and the 2022 ECPA Christian Book of the Year. She formerly wrote a weekly newsletter for The New York Times on faith in public and private life and was a columnist for Christianity Today; her essays have appeared in Comment, The Point, and Religion News Service. She currently serves as the C. S. Lewis Theological Writer-in-Residence at Baylor's Truett Seminary, is a senior fellow with The Trinity Forum, and an assisting priest at Immanuel Anglican Church. (Source: tishharrisonwarren.com) Learn more and follow at tishharrisonwarren.com, Instagram @tishharrisonwarren, and X @Tish_H_Warren.

Helpful Links and Resources

What Grows in Weary Lands (newest book): https://tishharrisonwarren.com/whatgrowsinwearylands

Liturgy of the Ordinary (most popular book): https://tishharrisonwarren.com/liturgy-of-the-ordinary

Curt Thompson, referenced on the brain and community: https://curtthompsonmd.com/books/

Show Notes

Writing from the middle of the process

Weariness vs. burnout—bigger than the occupational

"It felt like the call had dropped, like the line had gone dead."

Two years at The New York Times—top of a career, bone-tired

Spiritually tinged exhaustion, distinct from depression

Comprehensive difficulty—work, marriage, church, politics, drama

Post-COVID burnout talk; why the church rarely names this

Craving emotional highs in contemporary Christian faith

We lack stories of long, steady faith

"I do not think vitamin D will solve what I'm talking about."

Discovering the Desert Fathers and Mothers

Acedia, the noonday demon—sloth, boredom, irritation, doubt

Flame out, numb out, or go deep

The cell as guiding metaphor—a rhythm of prayer and work

"Stay in your cell"—counsel of St. Moses and Arsenius

Resisting the lie that escape elsewhere brings contentment

"The cell is actually this transformative place."

Curt Thompson: the brain isn't made to do hard things alone

A desert mother's maternal metaphor—the world as a womb

"What is happening right now matters"—hope without escapism

Grace: "we're not having to hold our life together... with will power and duct tape."

"Part of our weariness is it is too noisy. The world is too noisy."

"God doesn't need me to be impressive or achieving."

Trusting the slow work of God

#TishHarrisonWarren #WhatGrowsInWearyLands #ChristianResilience #Burnout #DesertFathers #SpiritualFormation #Weariness #Acedia #Hope #ForTheLifeOfTheWorld

Production Notes

This podcast featured Tish Harrison Warren

Interview by Macie Bridge

Edited and Produced by Evan Rosa

Hosted by Evan Rosa

Production Assistance by Noah Senthil

A Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/about

Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

What if the anxiety you most want to get rid of is the one you most need to listen to? Existential psychologist Dan Koch and marketing strategist Kristen Tideman join Evan Rosa for a conversation about what anxiety is actually for—and what happens when it turns against you. "To be human is to be unfinished. It is to have constantly limits around you, and your choice is to accept them or pretend they're not there." In this episode, they reflect together on the existential roots of anxiety and what it looks like to confront real limits—from an MS diagnosis to faith upheaval to collective crisis. Together they discuss healthy versus unhealthy anxiety and how to tell them apart, the post-WWII origins of existential therapy, boundary situations and “thrownness,” what denial costs us spiritually and psychologically, and how accepting our limits can paradoxically expand our world. The conversation moves between lived experience of multiple sclerosis and philosophical framework about mortality, between Kierkegaard's "dizziness of freedom" and a three-month-old baby in an emergency room—asking not how to eliminate anxiety, but how to let the right kind of anxiety make your world bigger.

Episode Highlights

"To be human is to be unfinished. It is to have constantly limits around you, and your choice, among other things, is to accept them or pretend they're not there."—Dan Koch

"I was literally in the ER. I'm holding my three-month-old baby who just got here. I'm like, my life just started—and I don't even know what this means. I don't even wanna Google what it means."—Kristen Tideman

"Our brains are big enough and our minds are strong enough that unlike deer, plants, and coconuts, we can think about the future. We can imagine our own death."—Dan Koch

"There's ways I wanna deny the MS. I wanna deny that that's part of my existence now. I wanna deny even components of my own faith change."—Kristen Tideman

"Is my world getting smaller, or is my world getting bigger?"—Dan Koch

About Dan Koch

Dan Koch is an existential psychologist, therapist, and host of Religion on the Mind, a podcast and media project exploring the intersection of psychology, spirituality, and everyday life. His clinical work focuses on religious change—deconversion, deconstruction, reconstruction—and the downstream effects on identity, family, and meaning-making. He draws on the existential tradition from Kierkegaard and Jaspers through Viktor Frankl and Irvin Yalom. Koch has spoken openly about his own fifteen-year experience with panic disorder. Learn more and follow at religiononthemind.com [VERIFY]

About Kristen Tideman

Kristen Tideman is the founder of Tidy Studios, a marketing strategist and creative consultant. She holds a master's degree in philosophy and has brought that background into her work exploring questions of meaning, anxiety, and faith in public conversation. She lives with multiple sclerosis and is a new mother. Learn more and follow at [VERIFY—need Tidy Studios URL and social handles]

Helpful Links and Resources

Religion on the Mind https://www.religiononthemind.com/

Religion on the Mind https://religiononthemind.substack.com/

Religion on the Mind https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/religion-on-the-mind/id1448000113

Tidy Studios https://www.tidystudios.com/

Man's Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl https://www.beacon.org/Mans-Search-for-Meaning-P602.aspx

Dan Koch on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/dankoch

Show Notes

Why tackle anxiety now—geopolitical overwhelm, media firehose, personal crisis converging

Kristen's competing anxieties: new motherhood, MS diagnosis, ongoing faith change

Dan's path into existential psychology through clients navigating religious change

Existential psychology's post-WWII roots—Viktor Frankl, concentration camps, the search for meaning

The atomic bomb as psychological turning point—from imagining one's own death to imagining collective annihilation

"Our brains are big enough that unlike deer, plants, and coconuts, we can think about the future. We can imagine our own death."

Healthy vs. unhealthy anxiety—the central distinction in existential thought

Healthy anxiety broadens your world; unhealthy anxiety becomes self-referential spiral

The inner critic mistaken for motivation—when unhealthy anxiety masquerades as drive

"I was literally in the ER. I'm holding my three-month-old baby. I'm like, my life just started—and I don't even know what this means."

Philosophy becoming flesh—studying mortality vs. receiving a diagnosis

"There's ways I wanna deny the MS. I wanna deny that that's part of my existence now. I wanna deny even components of my own faith change."

Ontological anxiety vs. pathological anxiety—Kierkegaard's "dizziness of freedom"

Avoidance vs. acceptance as the fundamental hinge in existential psychology

The body carries what the mind tries to bypass—emotions as literal electricity in the nervous system

Thrownness—Heidegger's concept of being tossed into unchosen circumstances

Jaspers' shipwreck, Sartre's blind man on a raft, Kierkegaard's captain in a storm

Boundary situations—MS, new parenthood, AI, sociopolitical chaos, loss of shared reality

Kristen on maturity: "Anything that comes at us, we can use as an excuse to weaken our resolve or to strengthen it."

"To be human is to be unfinished. It is to have constantly limits around you, and your choice is to accept them or pretend they're not there."

"Is my world getting smaller, or is my world getting bigger?"

Neurotic anxiety spins us inward; accepting limits pushes us toward collaboration and community

Emmy van Deurzen and Irvin Yalom—real problems require more than one person

Loving your neighbor as a practical consequence of accepting your own limits

#ExistentialPsychology #Anxiety #MentalHealth #FaithDeconstruction #HumanFlourishing #Kierkegaard #ViktorFrankl #ChronicIllness #MSAwareness #ForTheLifeOfTheWorl

Production Notes

This podcast featured Kristen Tideman and Dan Koch

Edited and Produced by Evan Rosa

Hosted by Evan Rosa

Production Assistance by Noah Senthil

A Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/about

Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

As Christians enter the most solemn stretch of the liturgical year, theologian David Ford — who spent over twenty years writing his commentary on the Gospel of John — makes the case that no other Gospel prepares you for the cross the way John does. "The right question is not so much what happened on the cross, as who happened on the cross. All through the gospel, every chapter, John is saying — who Jesus is is the most important thing." In this episode with Macie Bridge, Ford reflects on why John's Gospel resists rushing past darkness to get to Easter. Together they discuss what the foot washing reveals about power and humble service; how John's prologue frames the entire passion through the mystery of incarnation; Jesus before Pilate and the priority of truth over empire; the horrific interpretive legacy of antisemitism in Luther, Augustine, and centuries of Christian reading; how the Gospel universalizes identity by rooting it in God rather than lineage; the scene at the cross as the seed of the church; and what Ford calls the sheer superabundance of grace — loving "utterly, intimately, vulnerably, mutually."

Episode Highlights

"The one thing one mustn't do with these days is see the resurrection as just coming down off the cross a few days later. That trivializes the cross."

"Jesus is portrayed as being utterly one with God and utterly one with us. He's mortal. He's flesh. He can weep. He suffers."

"The right question is not so much what happened on the cross, as who happened on the cross."

"We are invited into this extraordinary intensity of the divine glory — but it's a glory that is utterly, utterly realistic about darkness, sin, death, suffering, and evil."

"The whole gospel, I think, is an education of desire."

About David Ford

David F. Ford, OBE, is Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at the University of Cambridge, where he held the chair from 1991 to 2014, and a Fellow of Selwyn College. He is the founding director of the Cambridge Inter-Faith Programme and a co-founder of the practice of Scriptural Reasoning. He has served as theological adviser to three Archbishops of Canterbury. His books include The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary (Christianity Today 2023 Book Award Finalist), Theology: A Very Short Introduction, The Shape of Living, and most recently Meeting God in John. His commentary on John's Gospel took over twenty years to write and has been translated into Korean. He was awarded an OBE for services to theological scholarship and inter-faith relations in 2013. (Sources: University of Cambridge Faculty of Divinity page; Center of Theological Inquiry profile, Feb. 2026.) Ford does not appear to maintain a personal website or public social media.

Helpful Links and Resources

Meeting God in John: Inspiration and Encouragement from the Fourth Gospel, by David F. Ford https://www.amazon.com/Meeting-God-John-Inspiration-Encouragement/dp/1587437066

The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary, by David F. Ford https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-John-Theological-Commentary/dp/1540964086

For the Life of the World Episode 224: How to Read the Gospel of John / David Ford https://faith.yale.edu/media/how-to-read-the-gospel-of-john

Scriptural Reasoning http://www.scripturalreasoning.org/

Denise Levertov, "On a Theme from Julian's Chapter XX" — discussed at Image Journal https://imagejournal.org/article/denise-levertov-a-memoir-and-appreciation/

Show Notes

Why John's Gospel is the "matured gospel" — distilled from years of meditation, eyewitness reports, and rewriting

"From his fullness we've all received grace upon grace" — the theme of superabundance running through John

John wrote for both beginners and the experienced — simple Greek, inexhaustible depth

Ford's biggest hope after 20 years writing his commentary: that readers would become "habitual rereaders" of John

The prologue as the most influential short text in the history of Christianity

"In the beginning was the Word" — the only framework for understanding Jesus is God and the whole of reality

"The Word was made flesh" — utterly one with God, utterly one with us

The farewell discourses of chapters 13–17 as probably the most profound teaching in the New Testament

Chapter 17 as the most profound chapter in the Bible — Jesus' final prayer before the passion

The foot washing: "All things having been given into his hands — and then what the hands do is wash the feet of his disciples"

"Loving utterly, intimately, vulnerably, mutually" — the heading Ford gave to Maundy Thursday; used as the title of the Korean translation of his commentary

"If you want to be great, wash feet"

The "as" in John's Gospel — love as Jesus loved, sent as the Father sent — requiring us to go deep and then endlessly improvise

Jesus washing Judas's feet — the radicality of love extended even to the one who betrays

John omits the Eucharist from the Last Supper — placing eucharistic theology in chapter 6 to keep the focus on who Jesus is

"I think nobody is in favor of the real absence of Jesus" — Ford on disputes over the real presence

The beloved disciple as the model disciple, Peter as "all the rest of us" — the one who tries, fails, and is restored

"The anonymity allows us all to write our names there" — reading ourselves into the beloved disciple and the mother of Jesus

The threefold "Who are you looking for?" and the threefold "I am" at the arrest — echoing Exodus 3:14, the very name of God

Before Pilate, facing the most powerful empire in history, Jesus headlines one thing: truth

The scene at the cross as the seed of the church — Jesus sending his mother and the beloved disciple to each other

"Here is your mother, here is your son" — the Greek verb for "received her" is the same as "whoever receives the one I send, receives me"

"The right question is not so much what happened on the cross, as who happened on the cross"

Nelson Mandela as a distant analogy: "Apartheid happened to Mandela, but Mandela happened to apartheid" — likewise, sin happened to Jesus, but Jesus happened to sin

Denise Levertov's poem on Julian of Norwich: "the oneing with the Godhead opened him utterly to the pain"

"He handed over the spirit" — not "gave up his spirit"; a possible first breathing of the Holy Spirit from the cross

Scriptural Reasoning: its origins with Jewish textual reasoning scholars working out what it means to be Jewish after the Shoah

Peter Ochs and the founding of Scriptural Reasoning at Princeton

Ford on reading John chapter 8 with Peter Ochs: facing the "appalling inheritance" of antisemitic interpretation

Adele Reinhartz's reading: John isn't anti-Semitic — John is Semitic; the Gospel relativizes ethnic identity

Dietrich Bonhoeffer on doing justice to incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection — all three, not just one

Receptive Ecumenism — looking at yourself first, asking how we can be better Christians rather than telling others to be like us

"The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness does not overcome it. But it doesn't say the darkness disappeared."

"The whole gospel, I think, is an education of desire"

#GospelOfJohn #HolyWeek #GoodFriday #DavidFord #Lent #PassionNarrative #TheologyOfTheCross #FootWashing #ScripturalReasoning #ForTheLifeOfTheWorld

Production Notes

This podcast featured David Ford

Interview by Macie Bridge

Edited and Produced by Evan Rosa

Hosted by Evan Rosa

Production Assistance by Noah Senthil

A Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/about

Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

The book of Ecclesiastes has puzzled readers for millennia with its unflinching observations about absurdity, meaninglessness, vanity, and futility. Biblical scholar Jesse Peterson joins Evan Rosa to discuss his book, Qoheleth and the Philosophy of Value, bringing contemporary philosophy into dialogue with this ancient text and reflecting on what happens when a sage confronts the gap between expectation and reality.

"Can you view your work, your toil, not just as a means to a further end? Can you rather turn to simply enjoy the work itself?"

Together they discuss the distinction between meaning and value, why Qoheleth denies lasting significance while affirming joy, the harm of death and the death of memory, Ecclesiastes and Camus's absurdism, and the book's surprising message about enjoyment as an intrinsic good.

Episode Highlights

"I think what's at the heart of the Book of Ecclesiastes is just to say, maybe not, maybe there isn't a direct line between what you do and what the result will be."

"It's not just that you'll physically die, but meaning that you've accrued in your life, if there was such a thing, that dies with you."

"In this moment of working on what I'm working on, whatever it is, I am fully alive."

"You have a little piece of the pie, and just own it. Absorb yourself into whatever that may be."

"Can you view your work, your toil, not just as a means to a further end? Can you rather turn to simply enjoy the work itself?"

About Jesse Peterson

Jesse Peterson is an Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies in the School of Theology and Honors Program at George Fox University. He previously taught at Purdue University, Fordham University, and St. John's University. He earned a PhD in Hebrew Bible from Durham University (UK), an MDiv from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and a BA in music and Jewish studies from the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. His work on Ecclesiastes has appeared in Harvard Theological Review, Vetus Testamentum, and the Journal of Theological Studies. He is the author of Qoheleth and the Philosophy of Value (Cambridge University Press).

Helpful Links and Resources

Qoheleth and the Philosophy of Value, by Jesse Peterson https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/qoheleth-and-the-philosophy-of-value/877B040C17EE8B9DD60174DEC7C306F7

Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi: https://www.amazon.com/Flow-Psychology-Experience-Perennial-Classics/dp/0061339202

Featured music by the Jesse Peterson Quartet https://jessepetersonquartet.bandcamp.com/album/man-of-the-earth

Show Notes

The most philosophical book in the Bible

Bringing Ecclesiastes into dialogue with contemporary philosophy of value

Jaco Gericke's Hebrew Bible and Philosophy of Religion as catalyst

Authorship: why scholars date Ecclesiastes to the 3rd century BCE

The Solomonic persona and the epilogue problem

Amal (toil) and yitron (gain): does life add up?

Qoheleth as businessman: commercial language for philosophy

Three theories of meaning: subjectivism, consequentialism, intersubjectivism

"Maybe there isn't a direct line between what you do and what the result will be"

Brueggemann's orientation, disorientation, new orientation

The absurd: expectation vs. reality, linking Qoheleth to Camus

"Meaning that you've accrued in your life, if there was such a thing, that dies with you"

The same fate for all: wise and foolish, human and animal

Epicurus and the harm of death

Hebrew anthropology: dust plus life-breath, no afterlife

The carpe diem passages: "Go eat your bread with joy"

Joy as robust, not narcotic—enjoying toil as an end in itself

"In this moment of working on what I'm working on, I am fully alive"

Csikszentmihalyi's Flow and the autotelic experience

"Just own it. Absorb yourself into whatever that may be."

#Ecclesiastes #Qoheleth #PhilosophyOfValue #MeaningInLife #BiblicalStudies #HebrewBible #WisdomLiterature #CarpeDiem #Absurdity #ForTheLifeOfTheWorld

Production Notes

This podcast featured Jesse Peterson

Edited and Produced by Evan Rosa

Hosted by Evan Rosa

Production Assistance by Noah Senthil

A Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/about

Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give